Chase Cards and the US Mint

July 16, 2010 - Rick

Many have questioned my reluctance to use Chase cards for US Mint purchases. I am by nature a very conservative player. If I see risk I move cautiously. I had two readers tell me their Chase accounts were closed and they would not be reopened. I reported that to you and suggested you refrain from using Chase cards for the Mint. Many of you are now reporting NO Problems using Chase cards. That is certainly your choice but the risks are too great for me. The guys that got shut down did not get the BA 100k, Chase Sapphire Preferred or will they partake in any future Chase offers. They have been shut out from doing business with Chase Bank. I’ll continue to take the conservative route and stay away from Chase and the Mint. But on the flip side of the coin, if I perceive a minimal risk in a promo or play, I’m in their with you “guns a blazin’”.

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adam

To the person quoted in the article denouncing buyers of coins from the mint, your complaints may be valid regarding those who bought cartons of coins and deposited them directly the bank (now prohibited), but not for people buying fewer coins.

Individuals buying $250-$1000 of the dollar coins is exactly what the mint, or rather, congress, wants. The mint does not give such good terms for other coins.

When you spend these coins into circulation, you're putting them into cash registers of retailers who often were not offering them before. Those cash registers then have the coins available for typically at least the rest of the day to offer to other customers, which fosters interest and certainly awareness of the option of using these coins. This is even true for very small deposits to bank branches.

I have never purchased the dollar coins from the mint and wasn't even aware of them before reading boards like this, but a few weeks ago I saw some shiny new dollar coins in a cash register drawer at my local drug store. When I inquired about the coins I was told that they were already promised to someone else. Probably somebody else in my neighborhood is willing to help put these coins in circulation just for the credit card benefits. This is exactly the scenario that I believe the US mint people have in mind.

At the risk of coming off as a bit of a political extremist, I must say I think that encouraging the popularity of anonymous money such as these dollar coins helps protect society from a variety of ills from counterfeiting to overly invasive laws all the way up to genocide. Using dollar coins is going to rescue anyone from Darfur, but it does make it harder for, say, the serial number of the twenty dollar bills that people contribute to some political cause that is unpopular to the point of being taboo from being matched to an ATM that scanned it when the money was loaded (in a world not too far in the future).
Anonymous

Rick; I have been a reader of your blog for well over a year now, and have not yet utilized any of your information to my own personal benefit. Today’s post was quite a shock to me, as I am quite surprised that you would even waste a post addressing these emails or comments. In my past life, I was a timeshare sales person and NEVER felt that way towards someone who just wanted the gift for the taking the tour. I encourage people if they are just there for the gift to let the sales person know up front, and if you buy, that makes the sale more enjoyable. While some people question the integrity of information sites like this I personally rationalize it as a gamble. We are leveraging our credit to benefit ourselves. The companies put these programs in place to catch the people who do not pay off their limits each month or will buy a timeshare on impulse, this is a highly calculated gamble on their behalf and it certainly pays off for the company. Part of their calculation is for people who are “mooches” and that is why the sales goals are set a specific way (15 – 20% hit ratio). If people see it as morally wrong they should look at their current home loans and reapply for a higher interest rate to make it fair for people with poor credit and that will also better our economy.
Senorric

Ingy,
Spot on – Kudos!
Ed Chandler

Rich, it's too bad you're taking so much flack. Allow me to do my part in balancing the scales.

Thanks for all you do.
Sue

I totally agree with you about the Timeshare presentations. I actually own a timeshare – but we purchased it on the resale market for one third of the price for which the salespeople were trying to market it. All that ultimately took was a little research and deciding on which resale company to use (Sellmytimeshare Now). They were very professional and efficient throughout the process. The seller was happy – I was happy. I have sat through several high pressure presentations, and yes, getting the little 'perk' they offer ($200 voucher for where you are then staying, a free night, etc.) only helps to assuage the the battering that one receives at those presentations a tiny bit. Of course, the rate of their sales is only about 20% – that's why their commissions are so high – and also why they can get downright nasty if you choose not to buy from them. It also helps drive home the fact that timeshares can be had for a fraction of the cost if you are willing to look around.
Will I continue to go to presentations – probably. Will my husband – nope – he can't stand the high pressure.

If one writes a blog, as you do, then it only stands to reason, as you say, that some of the things you write about are not going to please everyone. You do have the right to defend what you put out there – and I agree, kudos to you.

Bought your book – read it – loved it – and have put it to use already.
kw

Doesn't that timeshare supporter realize that NO ONE goes to a timeshare presentation without one or both of the following being true?

1. they're going for the promotional item being offered.

2. they have no real interest in buying a timeshare.
Anonymous

The person bashing you for trying to profit from timeshare presentations might consider that the timeshare business, in general, is one of the biggest scams out there. Perhaps the sales person is wasting *your* time by engaging in the practice of trying to sell one of the worst investments known to man. Why do you think there's a massive industry focused upon accepting *donations* from people who are desperate to dump their timeshares because they have *negative value* because the annual fees/dues are greater than their worth?

In any case, the free market is best at working out such inequities. Let it do it's thing. Same goes for the mint or any other exploit. Market forces, including frugal exploits, will lead to optimal use of resources over time.
Anonymous

I just bought my first order of $500 coins and plan on circulating them. I wouldn't bring them back to the bank, but I'm not judging. I also wouldn't cheat on my income taxes because I'd be scared as hell, and for me it's an ethical decision.

On the other hand, I've gotten loads of miles from checking accounts, credit cards etc. We have to draw our own lines. I am NOT condoning any behavior, but in the scope of things, the small population of folks who are actually doing this is dwarfed by the tax fraud cheaters, people who accept cash payment for wages, pay cash for wages, etc.

As I said, I'm not trying to justify. People will bend rules. As Rick said, this is not illegal, and that's the main point.
Anonymous

ftg –

i appreciate your blog very much, as well as your openness to criticism. i am with you — we each need our own moral compasses. if the companies involved were losing money or if they were non profits (you don't see non profits offering perks!), then it would be an issue. but clearly they are still making plenty of money, and as FTG says, there is nothing illegal. in fact, my ability to "take advantage" of the marketing budget of such companies frees up some of my money to actually DONATE to non profits. thank you FTG. i'm sorry some people don't like it, and appreciate that you can take the criticism openly.
doonya

that woman who ranted about timeshares needs to go back to school and learn how to spell …what a "LOSER"
Deal Chaser!!

Rick,
Keep up the Great Work!! Unfortunatly, there is no excuse for ignorance or those that choose not to understand the bigger picture. Time Shares, Nobody goes to a presentation with the intent to buy… Its called a sales pitch… Coins, Yes my bank thanks me for bringing them in!! They have many customers that want them. If the mint did not want me to buy them, they would not sell them to me. For Mr Anti-deal/anti promotion, please go through life and pay full price… That additional freebie they offer may cause me to buy/read about/talk about thier product, which is exactly what they want…
Anonymous

Just because these people feel ethically wrong is not our problem then stay away from our little world here. We are just using the system to the fullest and doing nothing illegal in the process.
Guy

I would think the timeshare seminar rep would want as many people as possible at their seminars. Ya I might walk in to it thinking there is no way on earth I'm going to buy one, but who knows, maybe you'll sell me. Probably not though, as, in my opinion, the whole industry is about high pressure sale tactics used to rip people off.
Anonymous

Excuse me FT-Guy,

You tell your first emailer to "google" the information. Why not Yahoo or Bing it? Is Google paying you for the free plug?
Anonymous

I run a web site devoted to saving money on travel. I occasionally get "poison pen" letters as harsh or harsher than these. I try not to let it get to me. There are some strange people out there who think working the system is always wrong. The relative anonymity of email seems to encourage them to be even crazier and meaner than (I hope) they are in "real" life.

My attitude is, if it's a legitimate offer that benefits me, I'm going to take advantage of it. If the company making the offer decides it was a mistake, or the ramifications were not thought through fully, then it can pull the offer.

And I don't owe timeshare salespeople anything, ever.
Anonymous

I'm not sure that buying coins from the mint using a credit card under false pretenses is not illegal. I realize that Wikipedia is not the gospel, but here are the elements of fraud listed there:

1. a representation of an existing fact;
2. its materiality;
3. its falsity;
4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.

I think all of these elements are satisfied where a person uses false addresses to trick the US Mint into sending multiple large orders (which is what Rick has advocated doing in the past). I'm not judging the morality of the situation–to each his own I guess–but I do wonder about the legality. To me it's different than applying for credit card bonuses, etc. In that situation, you may think that the credit card issuer doesn't want you to apply, since you know you're not a great customer, but you don't actually lie to get there, which is what a false address is.

Anywho, just my two cents.
Anonymous

To the anonymous person that wrote Just because these people feel ethically wrong is not our problem then stay away from our little world here. We are just using the system to the fullest and doing nothing illegal in the process.

Incorrect. You are not protected by any "ethical safe harbor". Your actions are the equivalent of uploading/downloading copyrighted material as if it were "sharing", when in reality you have no exclusive right. None at all.

Then we have FT-Guy profiting from it. In fact, he has bought an airline ticket within the last 5 years.

Come on overweight guy, approve this post.
Anonymous

There is a definite right and wrong when it comes to morality, sadly most people don't recognize it. The truth is, anything that seeks to take advantage of anyone else, is wrong. If you aren't taking advantage of someone, or hurting them, and only taking what's yours, then it's not morally wrong in God's eyes – it's receiving something you are entitled to.

Ingy does nothing wrong when going to Timeshare presentations, as long as he isn't going to them solely to take advantage of their benefit of the doubt. If he goes into them and gives them reasonable purchase consideration, agreeing in his mind to buy if say, they offer the property for less than $100, he's done his part. They can pitch prices higher than the $100 he's willing to part with, and bribe him with incentives, but as long as Ingy maintains his promise to buy the property for $100 or whatever other reasonable promise he can make, his morals are clear. He attended with the expectation to buy, even at that low price. Going into a presentation KNOWING you will not buy, though, is deceitful and wrong in the eyes of God (if that matters to you). But, giving them a chance to accept even a ridiculously low offer clears you of moral wrong-doing. Keep up that reasonable offer in your mind, and you aren't doing anything wrong.
a

Every airline and travel related business is busy trying to suck every last dollar out of me. You're trying to help me and people like me to return the favor.

I appreciate that.
Anonymous

If you have a debt coins must be accepted in payment. I try to use my credit cards for everything but some entities only take credit card payments through services that charge "convenience fees" of 2.5 to 4%. So now I pay them with coins. They don't like it much but it puts the coins in circulation.

Without your blog I would never have been aware of the coins. Now I always have 5 in my wallet & 25 in my car to use for small purchases.

Direct mail considers 2% a great return and promotions are to get people into the store or into the seats. It is perfectly appropriate to take advantage of any of these promotions. If they did not result in sales, the companies would stop doing them.

My favorite promotion pre frugal blog was one for British Airways and Jaguar. 10k for taking a test drive..
West Coast Dude

Rick,
Sorry, but can you clarify if the US Mint has paper money available for purchase? You indicated "…They screwed up by not removing the paper dollars first…" which sounds to me that the paper dollars are still available. No? I would love to buy paper money at $1:$1 rate. Thanks for everything!
Anonymous

I find the moderation of comments very ironic considering the communism dig toward the government.
Faith

Rick,
I have been reading your blog for almost a year now. You do a tremendous job and I appreciate everything you share. I have used so many tips and you have helped me incredibly.
If someone doesn't like what you say on your blog……why in the world are they reading it? So crazy to me! Stop reading things you don't like and go bother someone else.
I say just ignore these type of people. They must not have a life.
Thanks again for everything! Love your blog! It's a little fun part of my day away from the busy mommy life (usually when the littlest one is sleeping).
Have a great week!

Chase Cards and the US Mint

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